General field of module

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3/30/2010 11:18:51 AM
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I am a Russian programmer

General field of module

Hi, Joe

Now I'm writing some modules for mojoportal and noticed a peculiarity: each module contains a set of identical fields:

[ItemID] int NOT NULL,
[ModuleID] int NOT NULL,
[CreatedDate] datetime NULL,
[UserID] int NULL,
[ItemGuid] uniqueidentifier NULL,
[ModuleGuid] uniqueidentifier NULL,
[UserGuid] uniqueidentifier NULL,
[LastModUserGuid] uniqueidentifier NULL,
[LastModUtc] datetime NULL

Why are these fields have not been transferred to a separate table with primary key ItemID (Of course it would be necessary to develop standard operating procedures for this table)?

At first I wanted to write here all the advantages of such action. But you are a strong programmer must understand these advantages.

Maybe you'll create a table with these fields and develop standard procedures for working with it?

Best regards, Alexander

3/30/2010 12:55:22 PM
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Re: General field of module

Hi Alexander,

Sounds more like architectural criticism than a feature request.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I do not agree that these fields should be split into a separate table. I see no benefit to doing that at all and see several reasons not to. I also don't think there is anything wrong with having these similar fields on the feature specific tables.

First of all ItemID is not unique across features so a blog post can have the same itemid as a links module link or an imagegallery image etc.

Secondly if those fields were in a separate commonly shared table now I have to join to a table that has potentially a large number of rows since it would contain rows from many features. This would not be good for performance and would make the system more complex than needed.

Best,

Joe

3/30/2010 5:04:39 PM
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Matt Millican InternetMill

Re: General field of module

It seems like he is trying to over-normalize the database.

I had an entire class in college about database normalization.  Although it is recommended in web (and other) applications, if you ask me, it's possible to 'over-normalize.'  Like you were saying Joe, it would require joining an additional table, and once you do it for all the features I could see that severely impacting performance for installs that have a lot of sites.

Not to mention the time it would take to pull those fields out of their tables and more or less re-create the structure for them.

I think it's just fine like it is.  I have to bring out that saying "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" (of whatever it is).

3/31/2010 11:36:16 AM
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I am a Russian programmer

Re: General field of module

I'm more worried about the stability of the system and simplicity of writing modules for it, than a small speed reduction system. I did not call for changing the existing modules. If the module is working correctly, it can not be changed. My message was not about the architectural features of the system. Other worries me. The fact that absolutely no modules for the system developed by outsiders to programmers. That's what I propose, will simplify writing new modules.

Best regards, Alexander

3/31/2010 12:29:46 PM
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Re: General field of module

Hi Alexander,

Nothing stops you from using your preferred approach in your own custom features. I have no plans to to promote that approach, it has no appeal at all to me and I see zero benefit to do that.

mojoPortal has an open architecture that allows people to implement things they way they want in their custom features. We offer a base class SiteModuleControl which provides some convenience but one can use a plain old UserControl, one can use an OR Mapper or LinqToSql or anything they want. Or they can follow the proven patterns that I use.

In fact lots of people have implemented custom features to meet their project needs but that is a different thing than producing commercial features which requires more work and support. Since I myself am just barely managing to live on the revenue for my paid products it is not surprising to me that there are not lots of commercial add ons from 3rd party developers yet. As mojoPortal continues to become more popular and as I manage to make a decent living then it would become more attractive for third parties to develop add on features for sale.

Also it is not a true statement:

that absolutely no modules for the system developed by outsiders to programmers.

The Poll and Survey features were contributed to the project by community members, the metaweblog api was contributed by a community member, the initial version of the Feed Manager was contributed by a community member, the workflow system was implemented by a community member, the initial pgsql data layer, the initial sqlite data layer and the initial firebird support, and the initial support for LDAP/Active Directory were all contributed by community members.

Success of a project does not happen overnight, you seem to hold it against mojoPortal that we are not already as popular as other solutions and do not already have as much market share as other solutions. If I knew a way to magically get to that level of success overnight I would certainly do it. The only way I know to get to large success is to accumulate small success over time and that is what I am trying to do.

If you have so many worries about using mojoPortal perhaps you should use something else. There exist lots of alternatives and I have never claimed that mojoPortal is the best solution for every need. If the number of third party components available is of great importance you can certainly find a CMS that already has a large amount of add on features you can buy. The irony for me of course is that you have never purchased any of my products so it seems strange you are so concerned that more products are not for sale. Or I guess you expect there will be lots of great free add on features. In any case if you are not finding what you look for with mojoPortal perhaps you should keep looking and you can find something you like better.

Best,

Joe

3/31/2010 2:14:42 PM
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Matt Millican InternetMill

Re: General field of module

Joe,

Normally I would not want to do this on public forum, but I do have to agree with you.  I know I've told you this before, but I really think you have a great system.  It's truly easy to develop custom add-ons for and to understand where things are coming from.

I've been through the database and SPs that you're using and they all seem good to me (not that I'm an expert by any means) and I've also started going through the code.  I think it's made of "strong" classes that help make the system run smoothly.

Also, Alexander, you mention that you would sacrifice "a little speed."  However, if you ask me, once you have multiple sites (some potentially with high traffic) running on mojo, I think if you had to join another whole table in the queries that you would notice a difference.  Maybe not always to the end user, but more in server performance.

3/31/2010 2:14:43 PM
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I am a Russian programmer

Re: General field of module

Hi, Joe

I think that with such a strategy development system, you, unfortunately, never make a lot of money. Unable to work alone and be rich. It can only be glorified. Something must be working for you and also sell their program or as part of other systems or other systems ashamed to sell your system. Necessary to change the business model, if you want to be rich.

Best regards, Alexander

3/31/2010 2:45:54 PM
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Re: General field of module

Hi Alexander,

You are a real bringer of joy.

So you don't like my architecture and you think I have a bad business model, anything else you'd like to criticize while you are being so generous with criticism?

Criticism is the easiest thing in the world to do, building anything of value takes much more effort and talent.

I'm not aware of your experience in building a successful open source project, is there one I don't know about?

Have you ever built your own successful business from scratch?

I am not trying to please everyone and I will continue to do things my way.

Best,

Joe

 

3/31/2010 2:57:00 PM
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I am a Russian programmer

Re: General field of module

Hi, Joe

I was not talking about architecture. I'm talking about ease of creating modules for the system. These modules are created by users of the system, you can sell through their online store and still have interest. Give you examples of companies that operate on this principle?

I repeat can not become rich by working independently

Best regards, Alexander

3/31/2010 3:00:29 PM
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Re: General field of module

Well, one thing I know for sure, I will never become rich trying to make you happy.

3/31/2010 3:01:10 PM
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Matt Millican InternetMill

Re: General field of module

I'm not sure that the line "you can not become rich by working independently" is true at all.  there are many entrepreneurs out there who have been very successful by working independent. Not to say that you can't become rich by working as a team, but you can become rich by working alone as well.

3/31/2010 3:05:31 PM
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Re: General field of module

I did not set out to become rich, my personal goal is to build a successful family business doing what I love, I'm not trying to conquer the world.

3/31/2010 3:10:22 PM
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Matt Millican InternetMill

Re: General field of module

I think better yet, you're doing something you love! :) (or at least from what I can tell, it's something you love).

To me, software/web application development is something that I love doing because it's challenging and rewarding.  I love getting that sense of accomplishment when I figure out a glitch, or develop an entire solution for a client.

Keep up the great work, Joe! :)

3/31/2010 3:11:58 PM
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I am a Russian programmer

Re: General field of module

I did not set out to become rich, my personal goal is to build a successful family business doing what I love, I'm not trying to conquer the world.
 

Each has its own road to happiness. I became a little better than you understand. And therefore to understand the future of mojoportal.

3/31/2010 3:46:24 PM
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Re: General field of module

Dear Sky Sandy,

I am really wondered about the discussion you've started here. All these "you can't be reach if you're working along" is the misunderstanding of the really perfect and prowen way which is used for the Mojo feature. (imho)

Honestly, I could say what I see a greate progress with the Mojo during last years. Several years ago I was missed the Mojo but I've changed my opinion at the end of 2009. Really good progress and strong results which are impressive.

Between us, Sandy, you're from the Russia ( and me too :) and you know what you will be rich only if your father has a pipeline!

Joe, It was really interesting to know what a lot of wonder code came from the community. It's another big plus to Mojo.

Joe, thanks for your work and Good Luck to Mojo!

Regards,

Igor

4/1/2010 2:56:04 AM
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I am a Russian programmer

Re: General field of module

My concern is not only about the wealthiness of Joe. That is his right to develop business on mojoportal or not and how to develop it. I think about something else. How those users that are well studied mojoportal, can earn money (including me).

Potential users of any system are: 1.Corporate users, 2.Users or small firms, which make a site for money, 3.Independently created a website for yourself or your business. At the moment the actual users of the system are the users of the 3rd group. Accordingly, earn big money on the knowledge of the system for a programmer or designer is not possible. For example say, in recent versions included support Artisteer. And there was much enthusiastic cries of this. And as a result: user installs the system, buy Artisteer and he does not need services programmer and designer. This means the inclusion of support Artisteer is a huge blow to programmers and designers. That means professionals can not make money on the knowledge of mojoportal.


That's what I decided. I spent a lot of time learning the system and correct errors. Fixed almost all bugs. now I have information only about 3 errors, which I do not have time to write Joe. Since November 2009 when I began to engage the system I wrote to Joe more than 20 errors. I do not think one person on the forum did not find errors in the system longer than I do. For the 4 months I have made 51 site and taught over 100 content administrators. I also wrote brochure (80 pages) for Administrators of content . Yesterday I took the copies from typography. 200 copies. Therefore, it would be foolish to abandon the system completely and move to another.
 

But, as I said above, I can not make money on knowledge of the system, so in the future I will not put efforts into the system (only to correct the terrible mistakes), and redirect my energies
to the study of other CMS systems. Where is the knowledge brought by money.
 

I hope my thoughts were not funny.
 

Best regards, Alexander
 

4/1/2010 5:50:20 AM
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Re: General field of module

Sorry for my imho but I think what I see the situation clear ang I have a few words for Sandy:

1. Dear Sandy please stop trolling. You're jumping fast from one problem to another problem and woila - we could see the final problem: You are affraid what you will not be able to make the money with Mojo.. Is this the final problem or maybe you have 5-7 problems more?

2. The work in community, like the friendship and like the private business, takes the efforts and learning as well as all other in our life if we're trying to be the professional. Sandy, you've choosed wrong way to intiate the discussion about the Mojo and business. OK, that is my humble opinion. There are thousands another but right ways to initiate such a discussion in a correct mutually beneficial way. Do you understand me?

3. imho, as I could see, you're a good guy and good programmer, but you're not the head of the office here. Is it clear?

4. As a good programmer and manager you're setup 52 sites with Mojo and prepared for about 100 content admins. Really good for you and for Mojo! Please, tell me: Is all that been done for free?? Without any payment for you?? If yes, not the Mojo, but you have wrong business strategy!! Is it clear?

5. Sandy,take a little rest! And actually Good Luck for you and for you work for Mojo!

That's my humble personal imho and sorry for my broken english.

Regards, Igor.

4/1/2010 1:57:53 PM
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Re: General field of module

Hello All,

As one of the most active community members, I feel like I must share my thoughts on this matter.

Alexander, you have reported many bugs to Joe and he has fixed all of them that have been verified. You reported most of these bugs as if they were going to cause mojoPortal to be completely unusable despite the fact that they were very obscure and had a very low probability of user experience issues.

The way you post your feature requests and bug fixes is often offensive because you act as if mojoPortal is piece of junk that you are saving from certain doom.

Remember that Joe Audette has fostered the development of a very nice platform. Many people have contributed time and money to this project, not because they think it is piece of junk that needs their help. They do it because they think it is a great product and they WANT to help and they can see themselves making a profit as mojoPortal grows in popularity. Many of the nicest features of mojoPortal were developed by 3rd parties and then donated to the community. Joe already listed them and I think to accuse Joe of not fostering development is a very big mistake.

I was a little worried about the addition of Artisteer support and I even had a conversation with Joe about my concerns. Not that I was trying to change his mind or that I even could have changed his mind. His goal is to make mojoPortal popular and through that popularity he will be able to make a living and others (like me) will be able to make a living as consultants. I looked into Artisteer and the systems that can use Artisteer skins. I don't believe the people who make a business by designing skins for the other CMSes of the world have lost money by the advent of Artisteer. Yes, some people will decide to purchase Artisteer and build a mojoPortal skin for their site using it but I know none of my customers would do that because they don't know anything about building websites and they don't pretend to know. They would rather have all of that stuff handled by me because they want someone they can rely on for support of the design and clicking a help button in a program is not their idea of support. Futhermore, the inclusion of Artisteer support does not hurt any mojoPortal developer because you can't develop features in Artisteer.

Also, on the developer front, there are a lot of people who have developed features for mojoPortal and sold them to their clients or kept them for their own projects. For various reasons they haven't submitted them to Joe for inclusion in mojoPortal. I believe the biggest reason for this is people do not have the time or resources to support a feature for thousands of people. They develop their features to meet a specific need and that pretty much covers it. Developing a full feature to be downloaded by the masses takes a lot more work and a lot of planning.

I do hope you continue to use mojoPortal and I thank you for your contributions but please remember that your contributions do not give you the right to demand changes be made to mojoPortal. You can request changes but demands are a completely different story.

I say all of this with as much respect as possible. Constructive Criticism is very important to the success of a project but continued antagonization of the one person who strives day in and day out to give us all a FREE solution (that many of us make money with) is not constructive.

Take care,
Joe D.

4/1/2010 5:31:40 PM
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Re: General field of module

My $.02 is that I spent several months installing and evaluating over a dozen open source CMSs for our organization, both LAMP and .Net-based (we are basically one of Alexander's "#1" user type).  I actually lucked into finding mojoPortal through the Microsoft Web Platform Installer, and late into the eval process at that. Within an hour of using it I knew that mojoPortal was the one that would fit us best. As far as I'm concerned, there are no open source CMSs out there that can match the out-of-the-box ease of use, depth and richness of features, and ease of extensibility that mojoPortal has. Alexander, my firm belief is that you can search but you won't find a better overall open source CMS out there, and certainly not on the Microsoft platform.

Artisteer support can never replace graphic artists, just as photography did not replace painters. The average Artisteer user is going to create a look that's the equivalent of a snapshot, while a seasoned graphic designer like Joe D. can now use Artisteer as the launching point to make a masterpiece. Crafting a truly unique Web identity for a client is an art, and it can't be done properly by just relying on a canned program. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable at CSS, and even I recognize there are quite a few things that Artisteer can't do out of the box... Things like making the horizontal menu appear to partially bisect the header, or graphics appearing to break out of the header. What about animations? The list is endless.

Now if on the other hand your design skill level does not let you create richer and more compelling skins than a novice wielding Artisteer, that should be a signal that it's time to take your game to the next level. Clients should come to you for true value, excellent service, and unique designs; not because it's too difficult to modify CSS.

Joe, please don't let negativity get you down. You are on the right track with this product, and I know that mojoPortal will achieve great success in the future.

Jamie

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